OK, I'll Go First - CZ 452 Trainer

Discussion in 'Rimfire, Pellet and Mouse Fart Guns' started by Jeff H, October 23, 2011.

  1. Jeff H
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    Jeff H

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    I finally made up my mind to get a CZ. I have wanted one for years and have just trudged along with a 10-22 that I have been shooting for 33 or 34 years now. It has always been reasonably accurate and has pretty much always had a scope on it, but it never really handled like some of the centerfires I have "built to suit." My 10-22 has never been fired much for pleasure, being strictly a hunting and pest control arm.

    So, with the CZ 452 on the way out and the new 455 on the way in, I grabbed a CZ 452 Trainer before they were gone. From what I can see, the 455 is every bit the rifle the 452 was but a little different. I would still buy one in a minute, but I didn't see the Trainer in the new lineup.

    This thing is a joy to shoot. It handles well and is fantastic off-hand. The quality is very evident and it is very accurate - even with my cheap Federal bulk from WM. I will be trying some more costly target stuff, but I am glad it shoots reg'lar Joe stuff well. The iron sights are wonderful, even as I struggle these days with my eyesight not quite being what it used to. Couldn't figure out what happened to all my iron sights one day and it dawned on me - it ain't the sights, Bub' - it's YOU!! (me).

    [​IMG]

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    [​IMG]

    I kind of thought the tales from Rimfire Central were a little too good to be true, but this thing really is a fantastic rifle. I wish I'd have bought one a long time ago. I can see doing a lot of just plain old recreational shooting with this one. I may put a scope on it, as that was the plan, but I like shooting it with the irons so much that I am not so sure now.

    EDIT: Oh, and the "iron" sighs aren't really iron - they're machined STEEL!! Real steel! Not plastic, not aluminum, not stamped steel - but machined steel!
     
    Last edited: October 23, 2011
  2. That sure is a beautiful rifle. Are you sure your not a professional photographer as well. ;)

    I love shooting .22 reminds me of the days when I was with my grandfather learning to shoot. I've been thinking about a Savage .17 HMR at Cabelas, I found a killer deal for $250 new with hardwood stock. Only thing it needs is a scope. What do you think about .17 HMR?? Worth the money to shoot??
     
  3. Jeff H
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    Jeff H

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    Thanks. I've been messing with cameras for a long time but I have been amazed at some of the pics gun and knife nuts ("Bubbus" that we are to some people) can take. I actually used a pretty cheap camera for those (http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B004HO58NO/ref=dp_olp_new_map?ie=UTF8&condition=new) and it has been working out nicely. Gone are the days of living with the consequences of ignorance and the anticipation of seeing how well or how poorly you worked the shutter that day. Instant gratification and no worries about running out of expensive film.:)

    I have never owned a .17 HMR myself. I have only onwned a small handlful of .22 mags. Mostly because I could shoot .22 LRs or handloaded .22 centerfires cheaper than the .22 mag. Both are excellent rounds and I would be hard pressed to think of a better "one gun" for long-range, long-term survival than a light bolt-gun in .22 mag. I'm talking subsistence, not zombie and bear protection. It is also very flat and windy in this corner of the state and I have avoided .17s, thinking I wouild put myself at a disadvantage with that effect. Can't see anything wrong with it though and it seems to have a nice following.
     
  4. forrest r
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    forrest r

    Very nice!!!! You have 1 of the classic rimfire rifles out there. They have a good set of set on them, adjustable front & a 200 meter rear with windage adjustment. These rifles dominate at the nationals & have for years.
    http://clubs.odcmp.com/cgi-bin/report_eventAward.cgi?matchID=7138&eventID=1&awardID=1

    I own a CZ lux & that pencil barreled rifle can & will flat out shoot. I like that rifle so much that I took the time a couple of years ago to sit down & really accurize that lux to see what it could really do. The results are amazing!!!!

    A lot of people forget about the lowly 22 & the quality/accuracy they have. When I was younger I only owned utilitarian 22’s. They were plain Jane workhorses that got the job done. Now I find that I’m drawn to the classic rimfires, they just have so much to offer.

    You need to get some better ammo down the tube in your trainer along with a scope for testing ammo. When you find ammo that you’re comfortable with buy a bunch of the same lot of that ammo & enjoy the ride. These CZ’s have the ability to take your shooting skills to the next level.
     
  5. forrest r
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    forrest r

    I never could or will warm up to the 17’s myself, there’s just too many other options out there that are easily better choices for the yardages that the 17 will/can be used. Namely your 357 lever gun for one. You’d be better off buying 10,000 primers & 8# of powder for the money you’ll spend on the savage.

    At 20 cents a pull of the trigger for the 17, you could really make some quality ammo for a centerfire of buy some of the best grade match ammo for a 22 that’s out there.

    Years ago I never gave guns/calibers too much thought, I bought utilitarian firearms. Threw time & experience I’ve found that no matter what your buying a couple of simple statements hold true.
    They are:
    You’re going to easily spend as much or more on ammo shooting a firearm than the cost of that firearm.
    Good quality firearms will increase in value, bargain/ low quality firearms won’t.

    I’m not trying to tell anyone what firearm to buy or being a gun snob. I’ve just found from over the years of collecting/shooting firearms that some firearms hold their value better than others. It comes down to this, I’d rather spend more money on a quality firearm so that I can have quality shots every time I pull the trigger & make money off that firearm when I go to sell it. Basically I’m getting paid to shoot a well made, highly accurate firearm. Or I could buy a budget quality firearm, have mediocre accuracy & have to hold onto the firearm for years just to break even when I go to sell it.

    Basically, that’s what you’re seeing/hearing about Jeff and his CZ. The 10/22 is a great rifle but lacks true accuracy & has gone up in price threw inflation. The CZ has the same action/bolt combo that has been a proven winner for 50 years. It is highly accurate giving the shooter high quality shots with every trigger pull & has doubled in price every decade (10 years).
     
  6. You make some very good points Forrest R. I've always wanted a .223 bolt gun as well as my .308. Perhaps I will see if I can locate a Savage .223 at a decent price rather then the .17 HMR. I thought the HMR would just be a fun gun to shoot like the .22 but your right the cost is higher and there is no reloading that one. I got my .45 ACP mold on the way to tide me over and probably about 600-700 .38's cast right now too. ;)
     
  7. Jeff H
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    Jeff H

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    Thanks, I agree and I now see what all the fuss is about. I was also surprised that I could still shoot as well as I did with the CZ, being well out of practice. It makes me wonder how I got along with my other .22 so long. I didn't need a different .22 but it is very gratifying to have one that shoots like that. ONE really GOOD one of whatever I have is what I want at this point in my life. It used to be more fun t ohave a lot of stuff but now it's more fun to have a few of what I really like and want. That's just me.

    Not counting brass, which lasts a long time with the 5.5 grain load of W231, a round costs less than five cents a pop for 10k rounds. That's if you get "free" lead and don't count the blood, sweat and tears invested in your casting and loading. All of that is good entertainment too. "Free" lead is like "free" firewood. It really isn't free, you just trade a little part of your soul for it instead of cash.;) Sometimes it's all you have left to negotiate with.:eek:

    It's not all about practicality though because sometimes you just have to do what floats your boat and "practicality" can be viewed form many angles. I think that we, as shooters, tend to try to justify our choices using dollars and ballistic data. If scrounging lead, casting and reloading are fun to you, then it's worth it. If you like teensy bores or gargantuan bores, you should try to indulge in that as much as you can. Even at $10/50, speedier rimfires are more economical than most centerfires - if limited to store-bought ammo.

    I am no puritan myself in the matter. I have an affection for (or affliction with) the 6.5x55 and the long, heavy 160 grain round noses. I can't think of a practical use for that in NW Ohio to save my life. I can argue ballistics to suit hypothetical hunting situations, which will never happen, 'til the cows come home and still not come up with a viable argument as to why it's any better than the .308 (or .300 Savage for that matter) or why I "need" either where I live and hunt. I just got the 6.5x55 bug one day years ago.

    No, I don't shoot the .17 rimfires, but I bet I would get that bug if I talked or thought about it long enough. Actually, I think that .17 HM2 is the custest little thing and would probably gove that one a go myself. It's just neat as hell and I don't even know the ballistics of it.
     
  8. Jeff H
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    Jeff H

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    I have a custom 6-cavity LEE mould for a 55 grain, .225" flat-nose. I just have to get some casting time in.

    We can handle this one of two ways; rationalize why we would do such a thing with economics and ballistic tables, or we could just make up our minds it would be fun.

    Philosophy aside, a .223 in Ohio really does make a lot of gebuine sense. It is common, relatively inexpensive, useful as a woodchuck remover and can be as accurate as anything to shoot at paper. I have alwasy admired the .223 for it's unassuming usefulness and good nature at the loading bench. It's easy on powder (I use a surplus equivalent of H335) and the bullets aren't horribly expensive....................... although the last box I bough was $10/100. Brass is practically free. A friend gave me a gallon of military cases twenty years ago in exchange for a very minor favor and I was given several hundred once-fired Federal cases picked up off a police range by the range officer once. I haven't bought any .223 brass that I can remember.

    I think Savage is about the best rifle value out there right now, but take a look at these:
    http://www.woodburyoutfitters.com/product_p/10072.htm

    They are in Coshocton. I can't believe the price. They did confirm that these are the 1:9 twist. I have heard earlier ones were 1:12, like the rest of the line.
    Not trying to sway you but this is the one I plan to get if I get my butt in gear and move the No.3. Savage is first rate in terms of being a great rifle, but I have another of those unreasonable weaknesses for Mauser actions. I can't saythe Mauser is "better" than a lot of what is available today, I just have a soft spot for them.
     
  9. Well Jeff, I can say it's because of economics first and fun second. Being out of work gives me a lot of time on my hands and casting/reloading helps to keep my mind busy and hands busier.

    I am ex ARMY and the 5.56 was my first experience with the round and it's been one of my loves since then. The accuracy is wonderful and I can shoot it all day without getting tired from recoil. What you stated about the reloading is also a huge plus. The fact that the parts are so readily available and somewhat inexpensive helps. I truly enjoy reloading .223 rounds on my Dillon 550B, it just chucks the rounds out so fast and accurate. Unlike you I've had to buy some .223 brass in the past. I do have a buddy of mine in the ARMY and he just happens to be a base commander. I will have to call in a favor or two and see if I can score some .308 brass from him, it's getting tough to find cheap anymore.

    I like the look and the price of that .223 CZ rifle, by the look it has a heavy barrel as well, a big plus with me. Like you I have a soft spot for the Savage accutrigger, I like being able to set the trigger pull on my rifles. You've given me something to think about with the CZ. I've not really experienced the Mauser actions before so perhaps it might be my first. I just might have to visit Cabelas and see if they have any in stock.
     
  10. forrest r
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    forrest r

    I apologize if I can off wrong about the 17’s. I’ve shot/tested them & they just didn’t impress me enough to even have a hint of owning 1. I just found that the 223 that I already owned would do the same thing as the 17 would with cast bullets, but it would do it better. 223’s are extremely versatile, cheap to reload with cast to target/jacketed bullets & are extremely accurate out to & beyond 600yds. Before I bought an AR I had & used a savage model 10FP with the accru-trigger. What a sweet rifle!!! I don’t dislike savages, it’s just that their rimfire are not that well made or with the best quality of parts.
    One thing to remember about any rimfire ammo is that you’re at the mercy of the ammo maker price wise & quality wise. At least with centerfires, you can control the quality/accuracy of that ammo for a firearm. 20 cents a pull of the trigger doesn’t get you far even with reloading some calibers with match ammo. But it’s a start & when the hornady a-max 75g bullets go on sale like they do every year I buy enough bullets to last the year & I can load 600yd match ammo for 25 cents a pop.

    I’m all for new/different calibers myself & of all things the contenders & different calibers go hand in hand. I’ve bought & sold 3 different contenders & 8 bbl’s in the last 2 years. It’s just so easy to get a bbl in the caliber I’m interested in & give it a try. If I like the caliber I look for different firearms in that caliber. If I don’t like the caliber, I simply sell or trade that bbl & move on.

    I find that I have a soft spot for Mausers also, I own 2 of them now & they are sweet!!!
     
  11. Your fine, I took no offense what so ever. I've always been a fan of the .223 since my military days and can fully understand your arguments against the .17 HMR. Any money I would spend on that round I can put forth to the .223 since I already reload for it. When and who has A-Max on sale? I would love to get some for my .308 but they are damned expensive.

    I've never tried a Thompson Contender because of cost. They are a bit out of my price range. :(
     
  12. Jeff H
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    Jeff H

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    Been there before and am not so far from there myself again these days. Be honest with yourself - it's a rifle you plan to have fun with, but it just also happens to be pretty easy on the budget.;) There is no sacrifice in owning a .223 no matter what your income is. If I had a million dollars a year coming in, it would still be one of my favorites.

    That's funny. When they handed me some stripper-clipped 5.56s the first time on the range at Fort Benning my first thought was "this is a WOODCHUCK round!!"
    My Mom has a Sako in .223 and I loaded for it and shot it a bit as a kid. I had no idea it was the current service round - I just knew it was a great round.

    Man, I gave away about 500 7.62s a few years ago. I would have had to buy a small base sizing die and that was a bit much to invest when new brass was about half what it is today. The small base sizer would be a no-brainer today.

    I almost hate to do this to you, but while you're at Cabela's, see if there is a Howa Ranchland on the rack. It's a very different piece with its Hogue rubber stock, but they make an incredible rifle. It would be a tough choice for me between a Howa and a Savage and they are priced sililarly - the Howa may be cheaper. It took me a long time to decide ebtwen the Howa and the CZ. I have never used an Accu-Trigger so I don'lt know what I am missing. The CZ has a single set trigger. If it doesn't suit me, I can make the necessary adjustments. I have used Timney SPortsman triggers on Mausers or have had to make adjustments on my own on others.

    EDIT:
    A better pic from the CZ USA site. Click on the image and it will be a lot better than squinting down on that sorry pic at Woodbury Outfitters.
    I have shopped around for that same rifle and it's typically running between $550 and $700 everywhere else.
     
    Last edited: October 24, 2011
  13. Jeff H
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    Jeff H

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    I sure didn't read that into it.
    It was one of the more tactful and considerate posts I have seen on any forum.

    I agree with what you're saying on the rimfire stuff too. You have to try different brands to see what works best in your rifle and it is not likely it will end up preferring the cheapest stuff.

    Hand in hand with cheap reloading for the .223 and the ubiquitous .22 LR, my best friend and I are kicking around the idea of the Corbin die set to make .224 jacketed bullets from .22 LR hulls. It would be a while before we could swing it, but I have always like the idea.
     
  14. forrest r
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    forrest r

    Midway will have them on sale every year & the sale should be coming up pretty quick. I’ll have to keep an eye out for 308 bullets on sale. I haven’t looked for 308’s for awhile, still sitting on a stock pile of bullets for the 30-06. Another great place to buy reloading components is right around the corner from you at Cam Perry. Every major ammo/component maker in the country is there for the nationals (2 weeks). Along with major vendors selling reloading components at rock bottom prices. It’s free to get in & open to the public.

    Contenders aren’t that expensive; if you keep your eyes open you can find used ones for $300 to $350. From there it’s just a matter of buying/selling/trading for the bbl’s you want. That’s why I went thru so many of them in a couple of years. I was getting/collecting the pieces & parts that I wanted.

    Here’s what I ended up with, a new contender frame, 22lr match bbl, 357 bbl, 44 mag bbl, standard octagon bbl for end, 10” bull bbl for end, super 14 fore end, & a br fore end along with standard grips & target grips & a scope/scope mount for testing loads. After all the wheeling & dealing I have $700 invested in everything that you see which isn’t too bad considering that just the br fore end & target grip were $150 by themselves.
    contenderstuff.jpg

    Barrels can be had anywhere from $125 to $200+ depending on what you want.
     
  15. Jeff H
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    Jeff H

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    Well, I bought a brand new Williams peep with target knobs for the Trainer. Still dragging my feet on glass but ordered rings anyway.
    I put the Peep on and took it back off. With my glasses, I get ghost images and I lose the elevation feature of the tangent sight, so I will stick with the Tangent.

    I even dug out an old military leather sling and set it up. I acctually had to look up how to put the darned thing on, but once I found some instructions, I was actually still doing it right. It's been THAT long since I used a military sling.

    Seems I may have to buy a CZ 452 Trainer to mount on that Williams peep so it doesn't go to waste.
     
    Last edited: January 2, 2012
  16. Jeff H
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    Jeff H

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    Well, I went ahead and mounted a Burris 1 3/4 - 5X on the CZ just to see what it would do.

    I moved the stump out to 50 yards and drug the Black and Decker Workmate and a wobbly folding camp stool out, put the Bud's Bulls Bag up for a front rest and waited, waited, waited.......... for that creepy trigger to finally let go five times with cheap Federal bulk.

    The dot is a 1" Sharpie special on cardboard. The group measured .5" but I am confident it will do better. I shot several like this while sighting in and then shot a "clean" one for show-n-tell.

    [​IMG]

    I think after I get that creepy trigger fixed, this CZ will do just fine.

    I still want to shoot it without a scope, so the Burris will likely come off after I tune up the trigger and rund a coupkle hujndred through it.
     
  17. forrest r
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    forrest r

    Nice!!! These rifles are simply amazing when they get dialed in. I shoot mostly offhand with my cz luz, but I will ocassionally shoot from the bench.

    4 4shot groups @50yds for a 13mm game on another website.
    czlux13mm.jpg

    My cz luz with a scope setup thats excellent for that rifle, a 20x lyman.
    luxlyman.jpg
     
  18. neohiobiker
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    neohiobiker


    your talking about the 93r17? heck yes it's worth the money cheapest around is 344. that i've seen at Bud's and will match any price deal still on?
     
  19. Sorry I don't think that is is. It was a clearance deal they had going. I had to pass it up due to funds not being there. :(
     

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